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A man wrote me trying to deny premillennialism. My response is below.
IS IT WELL WITH YOUR SOUL'S PREMILLENNIALISM?
(Dispensational, Reformed, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, Chiliast, etc.?)
Great Awakenings' Hymn Poet, Horatio G. Spafford, 1828-1888, wrote one of the songs still highly favored in today's churches. It ruins all Premillennialism in its biblical insights in its final stanza, though Premillennialists love to sing, And Lord, Haste the day, when the faith shall be sight The clouds be rolled back as a scroll. The trump shall resound and the Lord shall descend. . ."
Yes, Brother Spafford, when The trump shall resound and the Lord shall descend faith shall be sight.
At our Lord's Glorious Second Coming every man shall see Him as He is.
Mark 15:32, 36 32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. 33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. 36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
What if He had miraculously come off of the Cross? There would have been no place for faith. All would have had "sight proof" that He was who he claimed. Could they then be saved? No, when faith is removed from the situation the "everlasting gospel" cannot work. Likewise, when our Lord returns in power and great glory, there will be no place for faith. All would have had "sight proof" that He was who he claimed. Could they then be saved?
No, when faith is removed from the situation the "everlasting gospel" cannot work. Nobody can be saved through another gospel.
However, many will be saved, die, and go up to meet Jesus during the 1,000 years (Millennium). Christ cannot be seen physically then. If He could nobody could be saved through the true gospel.
John Conover wordwon@mainstay.net244-7253
7 Sylvania Dr Taylors SC 29687
http://www.webspawner.com/users/wordwon/Meek,
substantive, biblical dialogue welcomed.
Your theology is twisted. Christ was seen by 500 men after he died.
1Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
There is much proof in scripture that Christ was seen by men, and are also given at the end of each of the gospels, and also in Acts 1.
Therefore, there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER, and certainly NO SCRIPTURE, that says Christ cannot be seen during the millennium.
The gospel is not about "faith in seeing Jesus". The gospel is about believeing that Christ died in your place for your sins, suffering the death penalty that you deserve, in order that you don't have to die, because Christ paid that penalty.
Was the gospel null and void for doubting Thomas, who not only had to see Jesus, but feel him with his hands, before he would believe?
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve,
called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore
said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall
see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print
of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his
disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors
being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach
hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and
thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said
unto him, My LORD and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas,
because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have
not seen, and yet have believed.
Was Thomas not saved because he saw Jesus? Was it a different gospel? Was faith removed from the situation because Thomas saw and felt? Absolutely not. It INCREASED the faith of Thomas, and note the words Jesus spoke to Thomas in verse 27:
"be not faithless, but believing."
The gospel is not about "faith about whether or not we see Jesus", the gospel is about whether you have faith that Jesus died for your sins in your place, and whether you have faith that Jesus rose from the dead as proof that Jesus can raise you and change you and make you incorruptable and immortal as Jesus was.
The Gospel & Salvation Message (in
the 1611 Authorized King James Bible / Bible Browser / Bible Gateway /
Blue Letter
Concordance)
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love
toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1John 1:8 If we say that we have
no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins,
he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from
all unrighteousness.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess
with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God
hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto
salvation.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall
confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is
in heaven.
You are the one preaching a different gospel than that contained in scripture, by saying we cannot be saved if we see Jesus. Let the curse of God rest upon your head if you continue to deny the Word of God.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel
from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached
unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say
I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have
received, let him be accursed.
Your view is utterly ridiculous, and completely contrary to scripture. Consider yourself rebuked:
Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
-----Original
Message-----
From: Jason Hommel
<bibleprophesy@yahoo.com>
To: wordwon <wordwon@mainstay.net>
Date: Tuesday,
October 29, 2002 1:44 AM
Subject: Re:
Is it well?
Your theology is twisted. Christ was seen by 500 men after he died.
1Corinthians 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom
the greater part
remain unto this
present, but some are fallen asleep.
There is much
proof in scripture that Christ was seen by men, and are also given at the
end of each of the
gospels, and
also in Acts 1.
[Agreed.
Thank you. Please note that the 500 and the others were all believers.
The little period between the Resurrection and the Ascension
seems to me
to be a type of the Second Coming time. Believers will get the privileged
attention in that short earthly time.]
Therefore, there
is NO REASON WHATSOEVER, and certainly NO SCRIPTURE, that says Christ cannot
be
seen during the
millennium.
[I don't see the brief Resurrection/Ascension period as a type of the Millennium. I know of no explicit nor implicit Scripture for that. Thus, I cannot agree to your above notion without some a biblical reason. In the Millennium representatives of Christ will have Him ruling through them. They will have to confront both believers and unbelievers during that time. That is similar to our situation now, as far as Gospel witness is concerned. We are ambassadors for Christ now, though we are being refined as we represent Him. Christians will be growing in grace during the Millennium also.]
The gospel is
not about "faith in seeing Jesus". The gospel is about believeing
that Christ died in your place for
your sins, suffering
the death penalty that you deserve, in order that you don't have to die,
because Christ paid
that penalty.
[Yes, the everlasting Gospel in about believing, another word for faith. Faith in the Substitutionary Atonement has always presented as vindicated by Resurrection. That part of the Gospel definition from First Corinthians Fifteen is missing from your statement above. If you are going to define the Gospel you should be as thorough as is appropriate for the situation. You and I should be in dialogue as seasoned Scriptural workers dealing in Scripture doctrine differences. Anything less that strong thoroughness is not appropriate in this situation. However, you did mention His Resurrection later in your post.
You say, The gospel is not about "faith in seeing Jesus". True. Just the opposite. It is about faith without seeing Jesus. You and I were save by a look of faith to Jesus, not a look of sight to a physically glorious Jesus.
ISBE (pd edition) ends its entry on the Gospel: "The Gospel, as the whole mes-sage and doctrine of salvation, and as chiefly efficacious for contrition, faith, justif- ication, renewal, and sanctification, deals with facts of revelation and experience."
When the 500 brethren saw Him just before
His Ascension, He was not yet glorified. That was waiting for Him
a little later per Daniel 7:13f:
13 I saw in the night visions, and,
behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came
to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there
was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations,
and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Like His Resurrection, faith in Christ is essential to a thorough definition of the everlasting Gospel.
Acts 20:21: (Paul) Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:22f: Even the righteousness
of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that
believe: for there is no difference For all have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God; Galatians 2:16:
Knowing that a man is not justified
by the works of the law,
but by the faith of
Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus
Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the
law shall
no flesh be justified.
Ephesians 2:8:
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the
gift of God:
Second Thessalonians 3:2:
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable
and wicked men: for all men have
not faith.
Second Timothy 1:13:
Hold fast the form
of sound words,
which thou hast heard of me,
in faith and love which is in Christ
Jesus.
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore
leaving the
principles of the doctrine of Christ,
let us go on unto perfection; not laying again
the foundation
of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Second
Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an
apostle of
Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through
the
righteousness
of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Revelation
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are
they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.]
Is
the gospel null and void for doubting Thomas, who not only had to see Jesus,
but feel him with his hands, before he would believe?
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus,
was not with them
when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have
seen the LORD. But he said unto them,
Except I shall
see in his hands the print
of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the
nails, and
thrust my hand
into his side, I will not believe.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within,
and Thomas with them: then came Jesus,
the doors being
shut, and stood in the
midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and
behold my hands; and reach hither thy
hand, and thrust
it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD
and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen
me, thou hast believed: blessed are they
that have not
seen, and yet have believed.
Was Thomas not
saved because he saw Jesus? Was it a different gospel? Was
faith removed from the situation because Thomas saw and
felt? Absolutely
not. It INCREASED the faith of Thomas, and note the words Jesus spoke
to Thomas in verse 27: "be not faithless, but
believing."
[We do not look at this account in John 20 to learn how Thomas became born again. The way you commented on it here makes me think that you may have lost sight of the obvious fact that Thomas was save by grace through faith in his Lord years earlier than this account in John 20. This account is about faith in the physical fact of our Lord's physical resurrection. Thomas did not have the Pauline Scriptures on the Gospel at that time. He had his Lord's word about His resurrection, but that was such an unprecented concept, despite Lazarus, that the Apostles then had almost no grasp of it factually or doctrinally.
In John 20 we have one of our Lord's initial steps in educating the Apostles so that they could make His Resurrection the opening point in the Gospel preaching that they must soon be doing. About a decade later the Epistles would formally formulate in writing the everlasting Gospel that had been in God's mind forever.]
The gospel is
not about "faith about whether or not we see Jesus", the gospel is about
whether you have faith that Jesus died for your sins in
your place, and
whether you have faith that Jesus rose from the dead as proof that Jesus
can raise you and change you and make you
incorruptable
and immortal as Jesus was.
[The 500 and the others that saw our Lord alive after His Resurrection did not have to have seen Him then to believe on Him. They were all His "brethren." No lost person saw Him physically on this earth after His Resurrection. To be saved then or at any other time a lost person must have non-visual faith that He did rise on the witness of Christ's followers.
Our Lord will return primarily as Judge. What will be the reaction of the lost when they see Him coming in the air? Will the Holy Spirit be drawing them to Him then as Saviour? No, they will want the rocks to hide them from Him. He cannot be their King/Lord/Saviour then (please see First Corinthians 15:24). "For He cometh to judge the earth and with righteousness shall He judge the world and the people with equity."
The Gospel &
Salvation Message (in the 1611 Authorized King James Bible / Bible Browser
/ Bible Gateway / Blue Letter
Concordance)
Rom 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us.
1John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not
in us.
1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all
unrighteousness.
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in thine heart that God
hath raised him
from the
dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto
salvation.
Mat 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also
before my Father which
is in heaven.
You are the one
preaching a different gospel than that contained in scripture, by saying
we cannot be saved if
we see Jesus.
Let the curse of God rest upon your head if you continue to deny the Word
of God.
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you
than that which we
have preached
unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel
unto you than that ye
have received,
let him be accursed.
Your view is utterly ridiculous, and completely contrary to scripture. Consider yourself rebuked:
Titus 1:13
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound
in the faith;
In general, I'm awe-struck at how the
power of God is vindicated and proven correct when I see how much you are
blinded
and in darkness when your theology
is so incorrect. You are proving everything God says in the Bible
about "false
prophets" to be correct with the babbling
nonsense of your replies. The most ironic thing is that you almost
declare that you must be blind, according to your own theology. Your words:
"All would have had "sight proof" that He was who he claimed. Could they
then be saved? No"
So you are so much like the blind leading the blind.
My comments are after the particularly bad comments you make that need correction.
wordwon wrote:
Thank you for replying. Sometimes dialogue needs some balanced vigor such as you used. [Please see my comments in brackets inserted into your comments.]
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Jason Hommel <bibleprophesy@yahoo.com>
To:
wordwon <wordwon@mainstay.net>
Date:
Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:44 AM
Subject:
Re: Is it well?
Your theology is twisted. Christ was seen by 500 men after he died.
1Corinthians
15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of
whom the greater part
remain
unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
There
is much proof in scripture that Christ was seen by men, and are also given
at the end of each of the
gospels,
and also in Acts 1.
[Agreed.
Thank you. Please note that the 500 and the others were all believers.
The little period between the Resurrection and the
Ascension
seems to me to be a type of the Second Coming time. Believers will
get the privileged attention in that short earthly time.]
Therefore,
there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER, and certainly NO SCRIPTURE, that says Christ
cannot
be
seen during the millennium.
[I
don't see the brief Resurrection/Ascension period as a type of the Millennium.
I'm not saying the prior appearance
was a type of the millennium. I merely pointed out that Christ appeared
after the
resurrection, to provide proof of the
resurrection. This example of Christ appearing to show proof, contradicted
the vain
babbling you wrote to me initially,
which was the following:
What if He had miraculously come off of
the Cross? There would have been no place for faith. All would have had
"sight proof" that He was who he claimed.
Could they then be saved? No, when faith
is removed from the situation the "everlasting gospel" cannot work. Likewise,
when our Lord returns in power and
great glory, there will be no place for
faith. All would have had "sight proof" that He was who he claimed. Could
they then be saved?
No, when faith is removed from the situation the "everlasting gospel" cannot work. Nobody can be saved through another gospel.
The main point here is that Jesus DID
provide "sight proof" and more already, and for the purpose of building
faith. And
the fact of his resurrection is the
gospel.
I know of no explicit nor implicit Scripture for that. Thus, I cannot agree to your above notion without some a biblical reason.
I don't need to provide what you are
demanding, because I do not need to prove that the prior resurrection was
a type of the
millennium to make my point.
Regardless, the resurrection of Jesus IS a type of the millennium, during
which time we will
be given immortality at the rapture,
which happens at the coming of the Day of the Lord, which is the millennium.
Given
those things, the type is shown here:
Romans 6:5 For if we have been
planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the
likeness of his
resurrection:
In
the Millennium representatives of Christ will have Him ruling through them.
I agree.
Rev 2:26 He who conquers and who keeps
my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations,
Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with
a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself
have
received power from my Father;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our
God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will
I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set
down with
my Father in his throne.
These quotes also show that the man
child in Rev 12 represents the body of Christ that will be raptured to
heaven, because
All three charactistics of the man
child (1, ruling over the nations, 2, with a rod of iron, 3 sitting
on his throne), apply to
both Christ AND the Church.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man
child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was
caught up unto God, and to his throne.
They will have to confront both believers and unbelievers during that time.
I agree there will be believers and unbelievers during the millennium.
The end of Zech 14 makes that clear.
I don't know what you believe about
the end time sequence of events, but we, who believe the rapture will be
before the
tribulation, use this as a proof that
the rapture is not at the end of the tribulation. After all, if believers
are given immortality
at the end of the tribulation, and
the unbelievers are destroyed, then there would be no unbelievers left
over to enter the
millennium. On the other hand,
with believers taken out at the pretribulation rapture, there will be time
for people to become
converted who will enter the millennium,
but will have missed out on the change to immortality at the rapture.
(1 Cor 15)
That
is similar to our situation now, as far as Gospel witness is concerned.
We are ambassadors for Christ now, though we are being
refined
as we represent Him. Christians will be growing in grace during the
Millennium also.]
The
gospel is not about "faith in seeing Jesus". The gospel is about
believeing that Christ died in your place
for
your sins, suffering the death penalty that you deserve, in order that
you don't have to die, because Christ
paid
that penalty.
[Yes,
the everlasting Gospel in about believing, another word for faith. Faith
in the Substitutionary Atonement has always presented as
vindicated
by Resurrection. That part of the Gospel definition from First Corinthians
Fifteen is missing from your statement above. If you
are
going to define the Gospel you should be as thorough as is appropriate
for the situation. You and I should be in dialogue as seasoned
Scriptural
workers dealing in Scripture doctrine differences. Anything less
that strong thoroughness is not appropriate in this situation.
However,
you did mention His Resurrection later in your post.
You say, The gospel is not about "faith in seeing Jesus". True. Just the opposite. It is about faith without seeing Jesus.
No, it is not. The disciples and 500 had faith FROM seeing Jesus risen.
You and I were save by a look of faith to Jesus, not a look of sight to a physically glorious Jesus.
I agree, we have not seen him "face
to face", and that this is a yet future event. But your original
point that "if we saw him,
we would not have faith, and thus would
be a different gospel," is vain babbling.
ISBE
(pd edition) ends its entry on the Gospel: "The Gospel, as the whole
mes-sage and doctrine of salvation, and as chiefly efficacious for
contrition,
faith, justif- ication, renewal, and sanctification, deals with facts of
revelation and experience."
When
the 500 brethren saw Him just before His Ascension, He was not yet glorified.
That was waiting for Him a little later per Daniel 7:13f:
13
I saw in the night visions, and,
behold,
one like the Son of man came with the clouds of
heaven,
and came to the Ancient of days,
and they
brought
him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom,
that all people, nations, and
languages,
should serve him:
his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass
away,
and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Like
His Resurrection, faith in Christ is essential to a thorough definition
of the everlasting Gospel. Acts 20:21:
(Paul)
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the
Greeks,
repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans
3:22f:
Even the righteousness of God
which
is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
For
all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Galatians
2:16:
Knowing that a man is not justified by
the
works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus
Christ,
that
we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the
law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ephesians
2:8:
For by grace are ye saved
through
faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Second
Thessalonians 3:2:
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable
and wicked men: for all men have
not
faith.
Second Timothy 1:13:
Hold fast the
form
of sound words, which thou hast heard of me,
in faith and love which is in Christ
Jesus.
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore
leaving
the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the
foundation
of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Second Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an
apostle
of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through
the
righteousness
of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Revelation
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are
they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.]
Is the gospel null and void for doubting Thomas, who not only had to see
Jesus, but feel him with his hands, before he would
believe?
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus,
was not
with
them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have
seen the LORD. But he said unto
them,
Except I shall see in his
hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the
nails,
and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within,
and Thomas with them: then came
Jesus,
the doors being shut, and
stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and
behold my hands; and reach hither thy
hand,
and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless,
but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD
and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen
me, thou hast believed: blessed are they
that
have not seen, and yet have believed.
Was
Thomas not saved because he saw Jesus? Was it a different gospel?
Was faith removed from the situation because Thomas saw and
felt?
Absolutely not. It INCREASED the faith of Thomas, and note the words
Jesus spoke to Thomas in verse 27: "be not faithless,
but
believing."
[We
do not look at this account in John 20 to learn how Thomas became born
again. The way you commented on it here makes me think
that
you may have lost sight of the obvious fact that Thomas was save by grace
through faith in his Lord years earlier than this account in
John
20.
You are engaging in vain babbling and
imaginative excuses to reject the evidence that is so contrary to your
own prior
assertions.
I will quote for you again, the words
you are so clearly blind to seeing. Jesus said to Thomas, "be not
faithless, but
believing." This clearly shows
that Thomas would have continued faithless, and thus, not saved, if he
did not see and touch
Jesus. Even Thomas himself said
the same thing, he said he would NOT BELIEVE.
"Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. "
Without the belief in the resurrection
of Jesus, Thomas WOULD NOT AND COULD NOT be saved, as you suppose, and
here is further scriptural proof:
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached
that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection
of
the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection
of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen,
then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
And there is more, Romans 10:9, which
I will quote again for you.
This
account is about faith in the physical fact of
our Lord's physical resurrection. Thomas did not have the Pauline
Scriptures on the
Gospel
at that time. He had his Lord's word about His resurrection, but
that was such an unprecented concept, despite Lazarus, that the
Apostles
then had almost no grasp of it factually or doctrinally.
Of course the account is about the resurrection.
But you deny that faith in the resurrection is necessary for salvation,
when
you invent the false excuse by hypothesizing,
contrary to the words in the account, that Thomas was already saved, when
Thomas said he would not believe, and
Jesus said be not faithless.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess
with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God
hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Contrary to Romans 10:9, you asserted
that Thomas was saved prior to knowing and believing "that God hath raised
him
from the dead".
In
John 20 we have one of our Lord's initial steps in educating the Apostles
so that they could make His Resurrection the opening point in
the
Gospel preaching that they must soon be doing. About a decade later
the Epistles would formally formulate in writing the everlasting
Gospel
that had been in God's mind forever.]
The
gospel is not about "faith about whether or not we see Jesus", the gospel
is about whether you have faith that Jesus died for your sins
in
your place, and whether you have faith that Jesus rose from the dead as
proof that Jesus can raise you and change you and make you
incorruptable
and immortal as Jesus was.
[The
500 and the others that saw our Lord alive after His Resurrection did not
have to have seen Him then to believe on Him. They were all
His
"brethren." No lost person saw Him physically on this earth after
His Resurrection.
On the contrary. Without appearing
to Thomas, Thomas would not have believed, and Thomans would have remained
faithless, and according to Romans
10:9, Thomas would not have been saved.
But you preach another gospel.
You preach that if Jesus appeared to lost men, they could not be saved.
The example of
Thomas flatly contradicts your vain
imagination, and false reason for your false prophecy, which is why you
are blind to the facts of the account.
But there is yet another clear example.
Saul to Paul. Saul was lost, and was converted by seeing Jesus on
the road to
Damascus.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first
of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according
to the
scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and
that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas,
then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of
above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto
this present,
but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of
James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen
of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the
apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted
the church of
God.
To be saved then or at any other time a lost person must have non-visual faith that He did rise on the witness of Christ's followers.
Non-visual? But Paul said he saw
Jesus. I will quote it again for you, because you have demonstrated blindness
and an
inability to see what the scriptures
say, "last of all he was seen of me also". Do you see
that word "SEEN" in the verse?
Yet you say, "a lost person must have
non-visual faith".
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