Readers, in case you want to explore this issue further with either Dean or Jason here's how to contact us:
Dean's website:  http://www.apostasynow.com/
Dean's email:  jac@multipro.com

Jason's website: http://www.linkjesus.com/
Jason's email: bibleprophesy@yahoo.com

The main complaint AGAINST OSAS has always been born of observation: we see MANY people whose salvation we dare not challenge (you know that the ONE THING you dare not do is tell a church member that they are are NOT really saved!).

Jason: This is an extremely important observation, and it says something extremely important about the Character of those who REFUSE to question their salvation. When they get angry at the very question, they show who their father is, which is Satan. They refuse the chastisement of the Lord, and they refuse the truth, and they refuse to obey the commandments of the Lord, which is to "examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith...". The Bible COMMANDS us, in several places, to question our salvation, and the very thought of having to follow this command MOVES THESE SELF-RIGHTEOUS ones to ANGER, when you preach truths such as "liars don't make it"--as you well know.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

DEAN: BUT THESE SAME people (whose initial salvation we dare not challenge) do not behave themselves in a way that pleases us. They are either casual about their faith; or they feel no obligation to give money to The Church; or they are very worldly and carnal otherwise; or they make friends out of people that are obviously not Christians, or they persistently do SOMETHING that shows NO FEAR OF GOD and no respect for The Church.

Jason: Admittedly, not all these things are sins. Some of the things you mention, we are to judge. Others aren't. We can't judge another for living in a way that does not please us, or having not the same faith as us. Romans 14. We can't judge another for following different commissions than us, or having different spiritual gifts than us. 1 Cor 12.

We can't judge another for not giving to a Church that he regards is teaching falsehoods. To require such is contrary to how it's supposed to be. The Church is to give money to the ones laboring in the word.

1Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

But there are things we are commanded to judge, such as doctrine:

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

DEAN: IN THE FIRST PLACE - it is NOT YOUR BUSINESS to decide who is and who isn't really saved.

Jason: Agreed, and here's why.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

DEAN: All you are allowed to do is judge one matter, one act and one issue at a time. When someone CLAIMS to be saved, we must treat them as if they are, on their word alone. But that does not mean that we cannot object to some of their words and deeds, and in fact, we MUST do so if they are errant in our sight.

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Jason: Agreed.

DEAN: THE FEAR of offending someone and receiving their vengeance is what keeps us from "speaking the truth" - when the truth will provoke bad feelings or outrage.

Jason: And I think we agree it should not be this way at all. We are not to fear any man, but to speak the truth with boldness, contending for the faith--even if it means we lose friends, or family, because God is the one to whom we will be loyal.

DEAN: We dare not challenge the legitimacy of their conversion, for WE ALL KNOW that THAT is the BIG "no no" that EVERYONE will condemn you for. The only thing we have left in order to put any pressure on these errant professors is to generally warn them that their claimed salvation is not guaranteed to them unless they perform.

Jason: Sounds to me like you are preaching conditional salvation here, which I agree with. They MUST perform, not just profess.

James 1:22-24
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

It is very disarming when you agree there are things we must do to maintain salvation, because this is the position of those who refute OSAS, and is contrary to those who support OSAS who teach the lie that "there is nothing we must do to obtain and maintain salvation."

DEAN: PREACHERS love to warn their congregation that they might LOSE/FORFEIT their salvation, because this helps them manipulate them into more regular church attendance and into handing over the money.

Jason: Earlier, you suggested that preachers, who teach the hard truth and "question one's salvation," would be rejected. Now you say they do it to encourage regular church attendance and money. Come on now, which is it?

Regardless, you seem to accuse them of teaching doctrine for money, as if that alone is proof their doctrine is wrong, but "teaching and receiving money for it" is not evil, but that's the way God established things:

1Co 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
1Co 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
1Co 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

If anything, this verse is a strong rebuke to me, since I have never received any money for anything I have ever preached. Perhaps this is hindering my message, since without any incoming money, I have no money to spend to expand my ministry. People have sent me free books, but so far, that's it.

Instead, I believe your false accusation stems from jealousy, that you don't wish preachers to obtain any money at all from the flock.

DEAN: These preachers dare not challenge the legitimacy of these people's conversion, for that is sure to make those who are challenged leave in a huff (taking their money with them).

Jason: Now, if those who refute OSAS are the ones with the most money and popularity, then how do you explain the popularity of the Baptists who teach OSAS and receive much money from their teachings? Seems you are arguing not only with a false premise (teachers who receive money must have false doctrine), but with false facts (that only those who refute OSAS do so for money).

DEAN: BUT all unsaved professors LOVE TO HEAR that the eternal matters involved are all IN THEIR OWN HANDS. This gives them a sense of power, and most of them believe that any old time they get around to reforming their ways, that THAT will suffice. It's all up to them - they are ones who decide whether it's eternal life or eternal damnation.

EVERY preacher that warns you that may forfeit your salvation has SOMETHING IN MIND that they want you to do.

Jason: Yes, they want you to REPENT and turn to God. Your reasoning suggests that one, who tries to convince someone to do something, has evil motives. Shame on you, REPENT of that!

DEAN: They do not believe that you can be convinced by mere reason, so they must resort to the threat.

Jason: And God resorts to threats, too, if we don't repent. If making a threat is evidence that the one making a threat is evil, then God is evil. But since God is not evil, and since God makes threats on us, as do the preachers you despise, then YOUR DOCTRINE IS WRONG, and your understanding is wrong.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Do you really forget what the Bible says when you start trying to defend the lie of OSAS? Is that how selective memory blackouts work when one is in spiritual darkness?

Are you now blaspheming God because He also threatens us with damnation and destruction if we don't repent and do what he commands us? REPENT Dean, REPENT!

DEAN: The Roman Catholics have a great host of sins that damn the once-converted: and most of that list of "sins" is really anything that does not support their empire. Willful failure to attend Mass on schedule sets you up to be damned, and etc.

Many Pentecostal preachers do the same thing with their tirades about tobacco users and wine drinkers and people who go to movies. They want to draw these people into a realm of control and manipulation, so that these people will submit and cooperate with whatever the preacher wants from them.

Jason: Refuting OSAS does not give the preacher control over the congregation. True doctrine is that Christ is the head of the Church. True doctrine gives no preacher any control that God does not give him.

DEAN: Let me make a shocking assertion to you. You can neither get saved or repent of your besetting sin on your own schedule.

Jason: Well, of course that's shocking, because it's not true. If we can't repent when called to do so by any preacher of God, or if we can't repent whenever we happen to read truths contained in the Bible, then why does God tell us to repent? It's utterly preposterous to say we cannot repent at any time we are called to repent. You can repent now, Dean, if you don't harden your heart and refuse the truth!

Oh yes, I should rebuke your so-called proof scripture.

Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

That verse refers to ESAU, as an example for us.

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

The point of Heb 12:16-17 is to NOT SELL YOUR BIRTHRIGHT, or NOT TURN YOUR BACK ON WHAT GOD HAS GIVEN YOU. The example of Esau is the example of people who are already within the kingdom of God, and lose out on their birthright when they turn their backs on it and reject it. The example of Esau is the DANGER OF BELIEVING OSAS. ESAU WAS NOT "FIRST BORN ALWAYS FIRST BORN." HE SOLD HIS BIRTHRIGHT AND LOST IT! How blind are you Dean? Esau is not an example of an unsaved man who has heard the gospel. The OSAS lie is that you CANNOT SELL YOUR BIRTHRIGHT, once you have been saved. But Esau DID SELL HIS BIRTHRIGHT, because he considered it worth less than a bowl of soup.

There are "sore punishments" stored up for believers, who have been "once saved", and then turn their backs on their inheritance, and count the blood of Jesus a light thing, as Esau considered and rejected his inheritance.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

DEAN: If you ARE really saved, God opens "windows of opportunity" for you to repent and escape the power of your sin.

Jason: I agree. Dean, this is one such opportunity for you. REPENT and reject the lie of OSAS.

DEAN: You must take the opportunity when God offers it, for just 10 minutes later may be TOO LATE.

Jason: I agree there, too. Because if you reject the message of the Holy Spirit, and reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit, will he come to you again?

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

If you refuse the truth, by saying that the spirit of truth is Satanic, then how can you be saved?

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

DEAN: God may well leave you in the thrall of your sin and you will suffer the consequences of that sin as it carries you off to ruin (in this life).

Jason: I absolutely agree, and again, it appears as if you are arguing against OSAS. Quite disarming. Look, James says we can "err from the truth", and when we are converted, we shall be saved from death.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

DEAN: It's the same with conversion. I was twice "prodded" by the Holy Ghost. The first time is when I was 11, and I said "NO". I then went through 9 years of dismay and earthly hell until I was 20 years old and God cracked the door open for me again. By that time, my life's experience had so beaten me down, that I had no hope of happiness or survival aside from yielding utterly to
the governance of Christ. I could NOT have gotten saved between the age of 11 and my 20th year when I did get saved. I even tried to call upon Jesus just to find out if He was real once during those years. Nothing happened to me. God sent a prophet to me to warn me of the errors of my ways when I was 19, and he prophesied to me about my future (it all came true), but I still did not get saved -I COULDN'T GET SAVED - I was sentenced to walk in the ruin of my own ways for a time, until I was sufficiently convinced by providence that I had no hope at all outside of Christ. But I know that God knew I would not get saved when I was 11. He sent that moment just to set me up for living out the evil I preferred, until I was totally sick of my own stupid and failed life.

Jason: Interesting story, but my Christian faith is not based on your personal experience, my faith is based on the Bible. I had a similar experience growing up, repeatedly rejecting the prodding in my conscience, the prodding of the Holy Ghost. For a while, I tried to ignore it. For a while it felt like I succeeded in ignoring it. Then, I began to get angry about the annoying guilt, because I didn't like feeling guilty in my conscience about sinning. I wanted to enjoy sinning without the guilt. I wanted that Holy Spirit nagging to go away. I decided to see if I could disprove creation once and for all, and thus, ignore the Bible with a conscience free of guilt.

Now, during the time I was living in open rebellion to God and in sin, there was little solid Christian teaching around that was able to really convict me. All my college friends were sinners, too. I took a class on Evolution that I found to be silly at the time, but in passing, and with many beers, I deceived myself into thinking it was a plausible explanation, since others believed it.

But NEITHER my experience, nor YOURS, is proof that you or I could have NOT been converted earlier than we were, if there were someone who came along and really preached the Word of God mightily and convicted us of our sins.

I had no faith then, because I was not hearing the Word of God.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

DEAN: BY THE TIME I was ready to be saved, I was totally convinced that there was no life for me in this world. I was BULLIED into salvation. Let me say that again. I was cornered, trapped, and made an offer that I had neither nerve nor power to refuse. I did not "choose Christ" - He chose me and swept me into his grace. There was no "virtue" in my acknowledging Christ; this was not my virtuous choice; this was what a desperate and dying man had to do in order to escape sure and ever increasing ruin. I thank God that He chose to save me, and that He effectively worked on me until I had NO REAL CHOICE but to choose what He wanted me to choose. It is not my fault that I got saved, it is God's fault. I was interrupted and run over by the power and providence of God. I was a vehement despiser of Christianity right up until the night I got saved. I was interrupted by God. I cannot believe that after all the controls that God put on my life in order to corner me into receiving Christ, that He would make less of an effort to keep me than He did to save me in the first place. I expect that if I stray too far, that I will be judged and "beaten" back into line.

Jason: I expect the same thing. I expect that if I fall into doctrinal error, there will be someone out there in the world of the Internet who will come along and preach the Word of God to me and correct my misunderstanding.

I strongly believe this, because the Bible says, "knowledge shall increase", and that's what we see today, especially with the Internet.

I ALWAYS take the time to carefully examine whether I am in the faith, according to the testimony of the Word of God, because I KNOW I can stray and reject the calling of the Holy Spirit, because I've done that and been down that road. And, I've grown to know that there are doctrines of demons out there that we need to test by comparing it to the Word of God if we are to maintain doctrinal purity and truth.

DEAN: I cannot expect any less - since I do NOT "trust in my own understanding". I need a God Who will TAKE CHARGE over me and prevent me from wandering or charging into destruction

Jason: You need a God who controls all your actions? Great, but you worship another God, one that does not exist. You worship a FALSE IDOL. Because that's not what God does. God does not NOW "prevent" us from wandering. We are free to wander, and when we do, we are confronted and rebuked by the Word of God. And then we have the same option we have had during our entire lives to either reject the conviction of the Word of God, or accept it.

DEAN: - for I surely know that that is what I would do without His PARENTAL OVERSIGHT. Even now, after all these years, I trust in the "rod and the staff" to steer me. The staff guides, but the rod punishes.

Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Jason: Yes, I agree the Lord guides us, especially when we submit to his Word. But when we do not submit to his Word, the Word is not guiding us.

Look at Peter. Surely Peter was saved at the time of Pentecost, yes? But Peter DID STRAY. Paul had to correct him in Galatians, and if Peter did not receive that correction, what did Paul say? Peter's FAITH WOULD HAVE BEEN IN VAIN, meaning useless, which would have resulted in Peter not being saved, because Peter would simply be deceiving himself.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
...
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

If you believe you CANNOT stray into damnation, I tell you, YOU HAVE ALREADY STRAYED, because what you believe is DIRECTLY CONTRARY to Peter's experience. Peter did stray, and would have lost his salvation if he continued in error, which is the TRUTH of the Christian experience.

DEAN: I believe in a limited free will. I am granted by God to have a created freedom to err in degree, but only so that I will learn the cost of error and abhor it from my own heart.

Jason: It is very disarming when you say you don't believe that God will let you stray to destruction, and then you say that yes, you do believe you can "err in degree", but not all the way to destruction. Regardless, this is contrary to the example of Peter, whose thoughts regarding the law Paul was able to perceive as being so wrong that they would have made Peter's faith in vain.

Dean: I am not allowed to get so bad or go so far that God cannot justify saving me. The Bible plainly says that God corrects and spanks His own, and God is not a failed parent. God knows how to stop me from going the wrong way and how to encourage me to go the right way.

Jason: Yes, I agree with all of that, but we HAVE TO REPENT and turn back to the Lord when we have strayed and are being convicted and rebuked by the Lord, when the Lord is trying to save us, otherwise, we will remain lost. If we openly reject the Word of God, what happens? He will deny us.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

DEAN: AGAIN:

1 Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The above indisputably states that God exercises chastisement over me to so that I cannot END UP CONDEMNED WITH THE WORLD.

Jason: No, the verse ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY. It does not say, "you cannot" end up condemned. It says, "should not".

The verse says the purpose and reason that you are chastised now is to prevent you from being judged along with the world. Chastisement is painful punishment, that, if you accept it now, you won't have to endure it later. Isn't that so much better to be a Christian?

But you can reject the chastisement of the Lord, and end up being punished along with the world. All you have to do is deny him, and refuse to endure his chastisement; it's really quite simple and easy to do. Just turn a deaf ear to the Word of God, and deny it, as you have been doing with regard to this OSAS heresy.

The religious leaders and Pharisees did the same; they covered their ears. They could not stand to hear the truth.

Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

Several times now, DEAN, YOU HAVE DONE EXACTLY AS THEY HAVE DONE, and shut your ears, even changed email permissions so that you would not have to listen to me rebuke this lie of OSAS that you cling to, and why? Did YOU REFUSE THE CHASTISEMENT OF THE LORD? You did it once, I pray you will not do it again.

DEAN: I simply cannot end up again in the unsaved state because GOD WON'T LET ME DO IT. Those who say that a truly saved man can make so many bad choices that he must be damned in the end for it, have denied that God is either willing or able to keep His own "in line" - while the above scripture PROVES that God is not only willing and able, but that He undertakes to preserve His own till the end. Does God "try" to convince His own to do right and FAIL? Not according to the above scripture. God "does the job" effectively so that the end is achieved.

Jason: You lie. Show me where in 1 Cor 11:32 that we are forced to accept the chastisement and repent? According to scripture, the Lord chastens many, and they end up unsaved. All of Laodicia was chastened, but where is the evidence that all of Laodicia will repent and be saved? It's not all on God to save you. If it were 100% up to God to save all men, then all men would be saved, because Christ died for all men. But it's also up to you. You must accept what he did at the cross, and repent yourself.

Scripture is CLEAR that we can despise the chastening of the Lord, and faint when we receive it.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Remember a few days ago, Dean. What was the conclusion we reached? That TEACHERS are sent by the Lord, who are commanded to REBUKE error, (which is the chastisement of the Lord), are given to the Church FOR THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING IN UNITY. Eph 4:11-14, 2 Timothy 4:2, Titus 1:13.

But what happens when the Word of God is rejected? No unity. Your adherence to OSAS is why there is a tendency toward lack of unity between you and me Dean. Not my adherence to any error that I'm aware of or that you have exposed.

DEAN: I think it's rather disturbing that so many who will spout off the saying that God saves us by grace and not works - and then they turn around and insist that we must preserve our essential salvation by the same works that could not save us in the first place.

Jason: This is such a distortion of Bible doctrine on works, it astounds me. The works that "do not save" in the "grace not works" discussion of Galatians, were the works of the "obedience to Old Testament Law" that included such things as circumcision, and not eating with gentiles. In contrast, the works we must continue in doing according to the doctrine of the New Testament ARE NOT THOSE WORKS OF "obedience to Old Testament Law". Listen to James, who preaches the word of God: (I already quoted James 1:22-24, about how we must be "doers" not just hearers.)

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

True doctrine is that it is grace, and faith, and works that save us. "By works a man is justified...". Not the works of following the law, but the works of righteousness, such as following the Biblical commands to love God, love our neighbor, continue in the faith, rebuke heresy, follow the commission God has given you, and so on.

DEAN: Better it were for us in this case - if God killed us immediately after saving us - so that we had no chance to forfeit or throw away our salvation.

Jason: I'm glad you recognize how dangerous it is to be "once saved" and not continue in the faith. But you argue as if it is impossible for you to ever be worse off after hearing the gospel, as if that's an impossibility. I assure you, it is not impossible, and the Bible says so. The Bible says that you would have been better off NEVER HEARING THE GOSPEL, than to hear it and then reject it, and lose your salvation, and the Bible is VERY CLEAR that this is, indeed, a possibility, and it says so in many places...

"it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness"

2 Peter 2 is speaking of BELIEVERS who have "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord". These are ones who have "know the way of righteousness" and have "turned from the holy commandment delivered to them".

2 Peter 2:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Peter makes it CLEAR that yes, we can know the way of righteousness, and turn our back on it, and become like the dog that returns to it's vomit, and thus, the "latter end is worse with them than from the beginning."

Proof 2:
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

And there is a tremendous body of scriptures that prove conclusively that we can be believers for a time, and then fall away. Two verses are enough to prove a truth:

Proof 1:
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Proof 2:
Matt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

DEAN: Whether you live long or not; whether you have money or not; whether you have success or not - none of these mean a thing if your end is hell's fire.

Jason: I glad you see that.

DEAN: John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus here asserts that God "gives" all He will save to Christ. We are but "objects" in a transaction between God and His Christ. Those that God gives to Christ will never be rejected by Christ. BUT SOME WILL SAY that we may "leave Christ" on our own... but this is also contrary to what Christ said.

Mat 18:12-14 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Christ. as the Good Shepherd, lets none of His sheep escape or be lost. If we go astray, we are pursued by Christ, caught, and brought back.

Jason: This verse DOES NOT say what you want it to say. It does not say that Jesus IS GUARANTEED to find the lost sheep. WHAT DOES it say? "And if so be that he find it" IF! Are you blind that you ignore the Word of God that contains the word "IF"? The word IF clearly indicates that Jesus MIGHT NOT find us when we wander--yes proving that we can, indeed, jump out of his hand, reject his chastisement, and so on. If it were guaranteed that HE WILL FIND US when we stray, then why the rejoycing of the angels? The rejoycing is because we might remain forever lost, and the consequences are that when we have strayed, WE ARE NOT SAVED.

DEAN: I may have been given a truly free will to err and sin and wander away - but I have not been given the freedom to completely escape the control of the shepherd. Even if He has to "break my legs" to keep me from wandering away, He will KEEP me in His flock.

Jason: Yes, he may indeed break your legs, and carry you back in. And you can end up hating him for doing so, and reject the Word of God and end up hating it and all who preach it. And then what will you be? YOU WILL BE the one who teaches the heresies in the Churches.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Yes, and some are even ORDAINED BY GOD to that profession:

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Which brings us to the very verse, Jude 1:4, that CONDEMNS OSAS so very strongly, since OSAS is the very doctrine that encourages lasciviousness the most, by saying you can sin after being saved once, and you won't lose your salvation.

DEAN: Those who count on their own performance to either save them or keep them saved

Jason: We must continue in works, and continue in the faith, or we will not be saved. See James 2, as I quoted above.

DEAN: are trying to be saved by their own works

Jason: No, they are trying to be obedient to God, (a thing that you apparently despise), who commands us to do things, like continue in the faith.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

God commands us to remain "stedfast unto the end" without "departing from the Living God"

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

God commands us to "endure to the end"

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

God commands us to "continue in the doctrine" to "save thyself"

1 Timothy 4:
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Dean, you contradict Paul when you say we cannot save ourselves by our works, it says it right there in 1 Tim 4:16, "in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee".

Dean: - and all their works are tainted - every one.

Rom 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Jason: Dean, again you are confusing obedience to the law with obedience to New Testament commands to continue in the faith. Romans 3 is about how the law convicts all mankind of sin. Your view seems to suggest that since we are all sinners anyway, there is no need whatsoever to obey anything Jesus says after our initial one-time salvation experience, since once we are saved, we cannot undo it.

DEAN: Without the INTRUSIVE influence of God, we would not and will not do what is right. God grants us a limited freedom in order that we may have personality, but He does not give saved people the freedom to become unsaved.

Jason: Yes, you just said it; we cannot "become unsaved". What a lie.

James says we can "err from the truth", and so many verses warn believers to not be deceived, or seduced, or have our hearts hardened until we depart from the faith.

James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

OSAS is clearly a "doctrine of devils", being so contrary to the Word of God in so many places, and never supported in the Word of God, not once. And certainly not supported by any verse I've ever read, or by any verse you quoted here. If I'm mistaken, bring on the correction and the chastisement of the Lord, and teach me and rebuke me.

DEAN: You did not choose to be born a sinner, and you did not choose to get saved - you couldn't, and wouldn't.

Jason: Yes, we did not choose to be born a sinner, we all inherited sin from Adam, the father of mankind, even if our natural parents were believers. But we DO CHOOSE to get saved, and here are the verses:

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

In a marriage proposal, the husband makes an offer. The prospective bride has the option, the CHOICE, to say yes or no.

Genesis 24:8 And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.

Genesis 24:58 And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go.

A full study of the wedding shows the Bride gives her consent and shows her consent by drinking a cup of wine, and she also takes a ritual bath, like a baptism.

Sound familiar?

We, the Bride of Christ, have the same option to choose, and we have many ways to show our choice by our actions. We can drink the wine and get baptised, just like a bride. We have the choice to listen to the Word of God, or not listen:

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

And we have the choice to testify about the Word of God, and give a testimony, which saves us. Romans 10:9-10

DEAN: Those who complain that God has no right to create a man that He will ultimately reject and damn ought to ask God if He was righteous when he created the scrorpion.

Jason: How in the world does this statement support OSAS? Of course God has the right to make us into anything he wants, he can even make us into a preacher of lies, as I already showed in Jude 4. But here's more verses on that topic, which glorifies the power of God to make men into whatever he wants:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Ezek. 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Isaiah 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he [God] hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

DEAN: God can make something He doesn't approve, display the badness of it, and then destroy it before us as a proof of His displeasure.

SO YES, I absolutely believe in predestination - and the result of predestination is eternal security.

Jason: No, just because God is in control (predestination) doesn't mean that he won't choose to let us abandon him and reject him. You completely distort and misunderstand the doctrine of God's sovereignty, authority and power. As an example of God's headship, perhaps to help us understand it, the Bible gives us an example; a man is the head of the woman.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Do you honestly mean to tell me that no wife, ever, was allowed to depart from her husband if he refused to let it happen? Ridiculous! Do you honestly mean to say that since God is in control of us, that WE ARE COMPELLED TO DO EVERYTHING HE DESIRES, just as all women have always done everything their husbands have ever asked them in all of human history? Ridiculous! We have the option to disobey, just like women disobey their husbands, and it will bring upon us unhappiness and misery when we do.

I think you misunderstand how headship and authority work. Obedience is not automatic and guaranteed; it depends on the willingness of the one under authority to obey the one in authority.

Paul was compelled by God into the ministry, but Paul also obeyed. God compelled Jonah into the ministry, but Jonah refused, and God had to bring chastisement. Again, Jonah could have refused, but Jonah repented and went to Ninevah.

Even a two to three-year-old child knows this simple truth about how it is possible to disobey when he learns the word "no", and starts being rebellious. Do you have such a feeble understanding about rebellion, you, the man who wrote "The Great Dream"? I feel as if I'm speaking to another spirit; another man altogether. Where in "The Great Dream" do you teach this OSAS thing?

Dean: Eph 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Those whom God chose to save, He has promised to keep until the end, and this choice was made by God before there ever was a world.

Jason: Just because God chooses us, does not mean that we do not choose him back and accept the offer of salvation. A husband goes out to choose a wife, and she can choose him back, or the girl can reject him. Have you forgotten that a girl can reject the advances of a suitor?

DEAN: The preaching of the Gospel is just God's way of sorting them (and us) all out in OUR sight. Those who will be saved - they will embrace and honor Christ if and when they have been made to see "enough" of the reality of the matter.

Jason: I agree with your last statement, people who embrace truth and God will agree with the sound doctrine as taught by the teachers that God sends into the world to rebuke error.

DEAN: The only people I know that hate this doctrine are those who have not made their own "calling and election sure".

Jason: Well, your reliance on your own human experience instead of the Word of God should not be your guide. I'm an exception to your rule, I've worked hard to make my "calling and election sure", and I'll testify you now that I'm quite sure of it, particularly because I've studied to show myself approved, and so easily rebuked you on this subject repeatedly.

Besides, you don't need to resort to "false accusations" of the people who hold doctrine you don't like. Satan is the one who uses that tactic. Instead, if you are right, you should show how and why my reasoning from the scriptures is wrong, point by point, as I've done with you.

DEAN: They don't really care about what God will do with the rest of the human race

Jason: Well, you are right about this one with me. I really don't care so much about the lost. But that's because I'm not an evangelist. I'm a teacher. My ministry is to fellow believers who are in doctrinal error, or rather, my ministry is to follow the command of the Lord to rebuke error so that others will not stray into it.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

I know that if I wrote something like this to one who truly rejected the Lord, that I'd be wasting my time.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I don't think many atheists would care or bother to read this. Most atheists DESPISE Christianity because it is filled with professing hypocrites, such as those who believe OSAS. They see no difference between professing hypocrites and themselves, and so they feel completely justified in being atheists in open rebellion, since the Christians they know are in open rebellion also.

DEAN: - they bring up all this concern for "God's fairness" as cover for their own insecurity.

Jason: Well, I have a page refuting OSAS, and I don't recall making an appeal to "God's fairness". And I have a URL for you below on OSAS, and I don't recall that author making an appeal to "God's fairness" either. What exactly is the argument that you are trying to rebuke here?

DEAN: WELL, Friend, are you SAVED?

Jason: I am saved now, and hope to continue to be so on into the future as I continue in the faith, and continue to avoid deception, and continue in my studies of the Word of God.

DEAN: Did there come a time; a moment; early in life or later in life when you were utterly convinced BEYOND ALL DOUBT that Christ was God and that He is also the final judge of your soul?

Jason: Yes.

DEAN: Did you ever really believe that the death and resurrection of Christ actually DID SOMETHING for you?

Jason: Yes.

DEAN: Did the life of Christ, the claims of Christ and the predictions of Christ ever become as real as history to you?

Jason: More so, because most of what I learned in history class I now know to be mostly deception and an attempt to hide the manipulations and identity of the Great Harlot, Babylon the Great, who controls the kings of the earth.

DEAN: Do you really and actually believe that Christ comes again
in the flesh and that you will see His actual physical face; and that when you do, that face will be the very same Jesus that is described in the Bible?

Jason: Yes.

DEAN: Do you believe in the claims and teachings of Christ so determinedly that you automatically judge against and refuse every teaching and notion that would contradict Christ?

Jason: Yes. I think this reply makes that rather obvious.

DEAN: Do you secretly suspect and allow that that "nicely behaving" BUT Christ rejecting Moslem or Jew or Buddhist next door to you will "somehow" make it on the basis that they put on a good show in the earth?

Jason: No, they don't make it.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

DEAN: Do you believe that the Bible describes the REALITY of life, or do you regard it as a hopeful fantasy that "doesn't really work" for anyone?

Jason: Bible describes reality, yes. Hopeful fantasy, no.

DEAN: Are you still secretly considering your "options" JUST IN CASE "this Christian thing" doesn't work out for you?

Jason: No.

DEAN: ARE YOU, by all your questions and challenges to Bible doctrine, actually trying to PROVE that the Bible is not reliable and eternal truth?

Jason: Never once have I challenged the Bible in this reply. I question how a man who wrote "The Great Dream" and spoke so much about the end time apostasy, can say out of the other side of his mouth that true Christians cannot ever apostatize.

Every bit of all of my arguments are designed for the purpose of showing the truth and reliability of the Bible, for showing myself approved, for instructing others who may read this, and for rebuking heresy, which I'm commanded to do.

In addition, I hope and pray that you repent of this OSAS lie, because then we could be friends, and discuss the rapture more, but this gets in the way, of course.

DEAN: I tell you now - every so-called Christian who ends up damned will be found to have NEVER REALLY COMMITTED UTTERLY to the Christian revelation.

Jason: Well, there are many ways people fall away from the truth and become damned, but yes, in all cases it's because they don't love the truth, but love something else more. Love god with all your heart, mind, body, soul, strength.

DEAN: They played with it and they made some use of it - but they never really BET their whole life; their entire hope of happiness; all their money and all of everything else on the reality and finality of Jesus Christ the God-in-the-flesh.

Jason: I agree.

DEAN: Real Christians will fail and lose and die with Christ rather than live and prosper and go on living without Him. Their fate is bound to His... if Jesus was a fraud, a liar or a false prophet.... if Jesus is the antichrist and will Himself end up in hell... they will follow Jesus into hell before they give Him up.

Jason: No, if someone claiming to be Jesus proves to be a fraud or a liar or false prophet, Christians should reject him. True Christians follow Jesus because he is truth. You are describing BLIND loyalty, the kind of which WILL APPLY to those who will be deceived by the antichrist. This kind of BLIND LOYALTY is REBUKED by Jesus.

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Perhaps Matt 15:14 is a rebuke to me, perhaps I should leave you alone, as Christ commands, and not grace you with the gift of the chastening of the Lord.

In STARK CONTRAST to your assumptions about how a true Christian is blindly loyal, Christians ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, and we KNOW who we are following, and that we follow the light, and the truth, and no fraud.

DEAN: Anyone who has not bet their entire life and hope on the verity of the Christian religion as described in the Bible is NOT YET SAVED.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jason: I agree. But this verse DOES NOT PROVE OSAS at all. It is also the Father's will that "all men be saved", but clearly, the Father's will is not going to happen, because many will choose to reject the offer of salvation.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you honestly believe that all men accept the offer of salvation, because that's God's will, it says so right there. So, obviously, something that is merely "God's will" is not enough to make it come to pass.

Alas, men reject the Father's will time and time again.

All who teach OSAS do so because they reject sound Bible teaching on the subject, or because they have BEEN DECEIEVED into thinking it is from the Bible, when, in fact, it is not.

The best web site I've seen on the topic of OSAS is the following:

http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-.html

Corrections of the Misunderstandings of "OSAS" Scriptures

The "Corrections" page is slightly longer than any of my "proof" pages. Surely God does not contradict Himself, and clearly none of these Scriptures mean we are "Once Saved, Always Saved." There I have John 3:36 ; Hebrews 13:4-6 ; Romans 8:35-39 ; John 6:35-37 ; 10:27-30 ; 14:16 ; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 ; Hebrews 7:25 ; 10:10,14 1 Peter 1:5,9 ; 2 Timothy 2:10-13 ; 1:12 ; Ephesians 2:8-10 ; 1:11-14 ; Matthew 28:20 Philippians 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:1,2 ; and 2 Corinthians 5:5,10,11,17