Please email us at webmaster@notdeceived.net and let us know what you think.
OK, Great!  I will.  I visited your page at
http://notdeceived.net/pretrib.shtml

And here is what I think:
I Praise the Lord Jesus Christ that your page is recently updated, and states at the top:
"We are still researching and eagerly solicit feedback. This is a living document."

Key Scriptures for the rapture?  See
http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/rapture.htm --this is one of the pages at my website.

Some of the major "pre trib rapture" scriptures that you don't have listed are:

[Matthew 24:40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[Matthew 24:41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[Matthew 24:42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
[Matthew 24:43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
[Matthew 24:44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

[Rev 3:10] Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

[2 Thessalonians 2:3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [tribulation] shall not come, except there come a falling away [departure/rapture] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[Rom 5:9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

[Titus 2:13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

[Luke 21:36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[Isa 26:20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

[Pss 27:5] For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me;
he shall set me up upon a rock.

[Phil 3:20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
------------
Within Theological circles, you may be able to get a list if you email the "Pre Trib Research Center" at
www.timlahaye.com

Some of the more well-known names off the top of my head include:

Tim LaHaye
Grant Jeffry
Zola Levitt

Church groups who believe and teach pre trib include:
Pentecostals
Presbyterians
Calvary Chapel
Vineyard Churches
Church of Christ

Bible Colleges include
Tyndale
Dallas Theological Seminary
Louisianna Baptist Theological Seminary

In Christ,

Jason

I read your article on Rev 3:10, and I'd like to address your points one by one, and add a few more.

First, you note that Philadelphia is dead.  I agree.  However, the REASON for the pre trib promise is given, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience".  Now, it stands to reason that if you, too, keep the word of his patience, you can be given the same promise, particularly since the rapture promise as given in 1 Thess 4 is yet to occur.  If you say that Rev 3:10 does not apply to you, I assume this means you do not believe you have "kept the word of [his] patience."

Second, the Church Age view is one possible interpretation, and you, apparantly have accepted or heard only of one variant of it.  Another variant would be that the Philadelphian Age and the Laodician Age exist simultaneously up until the pre tribulation rapture.  Yet another variant could very well be that there exist individuals who may identify with any one of the seven Churches in Rev 2-3.

Third, identifying the "hour of temptation".  You seem to ignore the two great modifying clauses in the verse which show the scope and reason for the temptation.
1. which shall come upon all the world,
2.  to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Since the scope is world wide, it stands to reason that this promise is to a world wide audience, and not strictly to a single Church in Philadelphia.

Since the reason is "to try them" is sounds like this is the tribulation, in which the greatest trial ever to come upon man will be
forced, the "mark of the beast" of Rev 13.

Fourth, temptation vs. tribulation.  If you do a word search on "temptation" and you realize that "temptation" might very well be a word that describes the tribulation, you will see many other "pre trib" promises, starting with the Lord's Prayer.

Matt 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

I'll let you find other verses on "temptation" at
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?

Next, regarding Rev 3:10, there are two points that I would like to
make.

First, there is an open door spoken of in verse 8, and this symbolism is repeated in Rev 4:1, the rapture verse.  How can you ignore such an obvious connection?  The open door is also a major symbol in many other passages regarding the return of the Lord, such as in Matt 25:1-13, and elsewhere, I'll let you do some research on that if you like so that you may be convinced by your own efforts.

Second, the word "kept" is perfectly in tune with how a woman might be tended to carefully in her bridal week in the bridal chamber with her new husband.  And actually, this is a strong picture of the rapture, which is likened to a wedding in many plainly spoken verses in the New Testament.

My website explains many of these Wedding comparisons, in case you are interested in further study.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing!" (Prov 25:2) Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early
shall find me.
Matthew 22:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Proverbs 14:6 A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.
Proverbs 23:9  Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

RE:

http://notdeceived.net/pretrib_argument_03.shtml

You link Isaiah 65 with after the millinnium.  I definitely see the corresponding similarities that you listed, they are undeniable.

Have you ever noticed in your Bible reading that there are often double references to things?  Double fulfillments?  Like the abomination of desolation being fulfulled more than one time in history for instance, like in 70AD & a few hundred years before Christ.

You see, there is a MAJOR PROBLEM of you put Isaiah 65 as ONLY referring to the time after the millinnium.  People still die.  And death is supposed to be completely abolished after the millinnium.

Isaiah 65:
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

vs.

1 Cor 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

and

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So, if you are preaching that Isaiah 65, with the death, is taking place after the millinnium, you are preaching that death will NEVER be fully destroyed.  Just wanted to make sure if that's your view or not.

So, this is why Isaiah 65, with the death, is taking place during the millinnium, as, at least, a partial fulfillment, so that verse 20 can
take place in its proper time.

http://notdeceived.net/pretrib_argument_04.shtml

I'm glad you found some verses in the Bible which describe the Bride as New Jerusalem.

However, to say that the Bride is not the Church, you would have to refute Ephesians 5, and many other passages.  I believe I already emailed you a few of those in my last long reply.

Here is a passage for you that explains who the New Jerusalem is.

Here, we see Mt. Zion is New Jerusalem:
[Heb 12:22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

And here, we see that Mt. Zion is PEOPLE.
[Isa 51:16] And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Thus, New Jerusalem is the PEOPLE of God, the Church.

Think for just a brief second.  Is the Lord marrying a city, or a people?  Yes, he is marrying a city, but don't cities consist of People?

He's certainly not falling in love with the gold and pearls of the city, is he?  Is that what you are preaching?

RE:  http://notdeceived.net/pretrib_argument_05.shtml

I agree that the Bible tells about the rapture prior to when Paul revealed it.  However, as you point out, people did not understand it at those earlier times.  This is the "revealing" of what Paul did.

When Paul says it was not revealed prior to him, he isn't saying it was never spoken of, just that it was never understood.

This is an error that I fight against as well.

Here are a few verses which lay the foundation that the Old Testament is prophecy for the end times:

[Col 2:16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[Col 2:17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Romans 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

There are many Old Testament passages in the Bible which speak of the rapture, and here are just a few:

[Isa 26:19] Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
[Isa 26:20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[Isa 26:21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Note regarding Psalm 27: it is read in the synagog daily for the 30 days prior to the Feast of Trumptes, which many believe is a picture of the rapture (last trump)

[Pss 27:5] For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
[Pss 27:6] And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

[Zeph 2:3] Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

Further, we have the examples of Enoch and Elijah, both of whom were raptured to heaven.

Hello again.

This is Jason, who has emailed you a few times in the last few days.

I have not heard back from you, nor gotten any rebuttals.

I was wondering if you were taking this time to review my website which presents plenty of scripture to explain the pretribulation rapture.

I was wondering if you are taking the time to reconsider some of your post trib arguments, seeing as how they do not line up with the scriptures I have shared with you.

At least, I was hoping and praying that you would be reconsidering what the Bible teaches on this very important topic.

I posted my website url at your new discussion board, under "agreeing with pretrib" of course.

http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/

Jason Hommel

>
> --
> Have you been deceived?
>
> Not Deceived Network
> http://NotDeceived.net

That Jesus will come back in his return in Glory with all his saints from heaven AFTER the tribulation is a major theme to the pretribulational view. Yes, the Bible IS quite clear about the glorious second coming after the tribulation when Christ returns WITH his SAINTS FROM HEAVEN.

Ignorance never rules out a viewpoint, I'm sorry to say.  Nor does the lack of a clear statement of fact.

Jesus, in the New Testament, taught clearly that in the resurrection, people would not marry or be given in marriage.  However, in the entire Old Testament, there is NEVER a clear statement of this fact!!!  And yet, Jesus fully expected his audience to be able to infer it, and he said that if they didn't know it, it was only because they did not know the scriptures.  Do the research, and you will find this to be true.

In fact, there are many such teachings of Jesus that are not stated clearly. He taught that he spoke in parables to conceal things from his audience on purpose.

If you expect a clear statement of the fact of the pretribulation rapture, you will never find it.  Particularly not when you deny the scriptures so routinely, like Rev 3:10, & 4:1.

Jason

                       Jason,

                       He spoke in parables to those who would not hear. In Matthew 24, when speaking to
                       His disciples privately, He spoke plainly. Were he planning to come BEFORE the
                       tribulation, then He did not give them an accurate answer. Matthew 24:29-31 was
                       not a parable.

                       Do you believe that in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 Jesus comes FOR His saints? Well, check
                       this out:

                       1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so
                       them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH him."

                       If this is a pretribulational event, then note that He brings His saints WITH Him.
                       The classic FOR (pretrib) and WITH (post trib) argument is thus easily refuted.

                       - Sam

> Jason,
>
> He spoke in parables to those who would not hear.

Exactly.  And you are not hearing the pretribulation rapture truth, are you? No, you are rejecting it soundly, and based on those exact "difficult to understand" parables he spoke of.

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

And if prophecy is so clear, then why is this stated?

1Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

>  In Matthew 24, when speaking to
> His disciples privately, He spoke plainly.  Were he planning to come BEFORE the
> tribulation, then He did not give them an accurate answer.  Matthew 24:29-31 was
> not a parable.

Are you saying that Matt 24:29-31 is not speaking in the same highly symbolic language that the Bible uses routinely to describe the Day of the Lord.  Have you never compared this verse with the sixth seal, or Joel 2 and Rev 12, the manchild vision
which includes information about the stars falling, which is EXACTLY what is being described in verse 29? And look at the verse just before it!  28!

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

That is an unexplained parable if I ever saw one!  And before you run off and compare it with Rev 19, which I agree with, compare it also to

Isaiah 40:31  But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

And the end of John 6, and also the last supper!

So, in one comparison, the body is unbelievers, and in the other comparison it is our Lord Jesus Christ.  And you say there are no mysterious parables in Matt 24?  Please, don't insult yourself and malign the Word of God by lying about it in your ignorance.

Compare Matt 24:31 with the following:

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Truly, if Jesus ONLY spoke of the great tribulation, the upcoming 7 year one, then how do you explain John applying the Olivet Discourse's "false Christs" to the "many antichrists" he saw in his time?  You can either say John believed in post trib, but was hopelessly wrong about the timing, or he could have been applying that to the tribulation of his day.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

> Do you believe that in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 Jesus comes FOR His saints?  Well, check
> this out:
>
> 1 Thessalonians 4:14  "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so
> them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH him."
>
> If this is a pretribulational event, then note that He brings His saints WITH Him.
> The classic FOR (pretrib) and WITH (post trib) argument is thus easily refuted.
>
> - Sam

Sam, do you mean to infer that the living saints will also be brought WITH him at this time?  Really now, be serious. These who "God bring WITH him" will be CAUGHT UP into the air to heaven, not brought back.  Read the next few lines!  You really do the post trib argument a severe injustice when you use such bad arguments.

I'm beginning to lose hope you will ever see the truth, and if I lose hope for you, how can I pray for you?

Likewise, if you have no hope in the pretribulation rapture, how can you hope for it and pray for it as we are commanded to do?

[Luke 21:36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus is Lord!
In Christ,

Jason

Hi Jason,

You've said things to my wife like "if you were honest" and so forth.  This is very impolite.  You would most assuredly not dare to say that to her in person.

On your web site, your statement:

"Personally, I believe that hard-hearted, contentious, post-tribbers, who teach lies, will get their prayers answered, and will find themselves in the tribulation."

Does not reflect the view of most pretrib folks.  While we and they may disagree, seldom do I ever see such virulent language as to suggest that folks would be "left behind" because they are post trib.

Please do not email us again, and kindly refrain from posting on our message board.

- Sam

I tried to send him one last letter, the letter below, which suggests that he was about to behave like the Pharisees of Acts 6 & 7, but he beat me to it, and actually did stick his fingers in his ears.

Further, he put a block on my ability to post to his web forum.

The original message was received at Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:34:20 -0500 (EST)
from user-33qtm8j.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.217.19]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<webmaster@notdeceived.net>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to notdeceived.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<bibleprophesy@yahoo.com> SIZE=5534
<<< 553 <bibleprophesy@yahoo.com>... Access Denied:Spam not accepted
501 <webmaster@notdeceived.net>... Data format error

Reporting-MTA: dns; smtp6.mindspring.com
Received-From-MTA: DNS; user-33qtm8j.dialup.mindspring.com
Arrival-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:34:20 -0500 (EST)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; webmaster@notdeceived.net
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.3
Remote-MTA: DNS; notdeceived.net
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 553 <bibleprophesy@yahoo.com>... Access Denied:Spam not accepted
Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:34:22 -0500 (EST)
 

     Subject:             Re: have not heard back
       Date:             Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:16:12 -0800
      From:             Jason Hommel <bibleprophesy@yahoo.com>
        To:             webmaster@notdeceived.net
 References:
            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6

Dear Sam

I'm very sorry for being stupid and insensitive.  I hope I was much less so than Peter in Acts 2 when he called the Jewish crowd murderers, and I hope I was much less offensive than Stephen in Acts 6 & 7 who called other people murders.  I always hope that if my preaching offends people, that my listeners would open their hearts like those people in Acts 2, not react and close their ears like those people in Acts 6 & 7.

I realize that several things I have said were offensive, the "not being honest" statments, the "heart hearted" comment, the "contentious" comment, the "teaching lies" comment.  But all of this is really nothing.  Because we know that at the end of the day, when we each hold to a different position, one of us MUST be lying, there's absolutely no getting around that fact, that's simply reality.  I must say those things about your position to be honest, and YOU MUST SAY THOSE KINDS OF THINGS ABOUT MY position to be honest, AND YOU DO!

http://www.notdeceived.net/intro.shtml
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  You say you are "not deceived".  And by implication, you say that I am deceived!  I don't take offence to that, I realize that's necessary for you to say.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
You say I am a "false prophet".  And you must because you preach I'm wrong.  I don't take offence to that, I realize that's necessary for you to say.

You say I do not study the word for myself.
"We believe it is because...  Some do not study the Word for themselves. "
I don't take offense to that.  You must conclude things like this.

You say I misinterpret the Bible.
Some misinterpret the Bible, often using biased margin notes
I don't take offense to that.  You must conclude things like this.

You call me ignorant, that I "do not even know the history of dispensationalism"
When, in fact, I reject several dispensational ideas, and do not even teach it.
But I don't take offense to any of that.  You must conclude things like this.

And that's just on your INTRODUCTION PAGE for starters.

SO FINALLY,

So the final and only real offensive thing that I could have said was the comment about being left behind.  So I am forced to ask:

What is wrong with me saying that God will give you your heart's desire?

You preach you will be here in the tribulation.
I preach you will be here in the tribulation.

WE BOTH AGREE ON THAT!  So, what's the problem?  HONESTLY?

If I don't hear from you personally in email, I will be forced to publish this to your message board, or to another very popular message board, or to make a webpage about this subject, to reveal what I can to others who may be seeking the Lord,

I believe this exchange has revealed you two as a man and wife who fear being left behind in a pretribulation rapture, and yet refuse to teach the scriptural basis for the pretribulation rapture.  I believe that says something enormously profound.

What IS the condition of your heart right now?

Re-read Acts 2 and 6/7.  Is your heart soft or hard?

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
 1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
 1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him
 from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Click Here to go Back to the Home Page:
Online Bible Prophecy Studies;
Please feel free to email me, Jason, at
bibleprophesy@yahoo.com
if you have any questions or comments on this article,
or on the subject of the pretribulation rapture,
or if you wish to share any scriptures with me.