I run a website that presents the pretribulation rapture as found and taught in the Holy Bible (KJV). I will be linking to your site, and copying this letter to answer the questions you present at your website.  I have sent you emails before which addressed this webpage, but you never responded to them.  Once again, I invite your comments.

So, to answer your 6 big questions at
http://www.lookup.org/Pretrib.htm

First, the questions in your introduction:

The Bible says that "there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall."  Does that mean that the great tribulation will be worse than the holocaust?  Could it mean that it will be worse than what some Christians are going through around the world today?

Revelation 6:7  And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

So, with the world's population in 4 parts, one part is killed, with three parts left.

Revelation 9:
15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
16 The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.
17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.
18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

Of the remaining 3/4, one third is killed, so we are down to 2/4, or 1/2 left.

The pretrib position, as far as I am aware, is that these stellar signs definitely happen at the start of the great tribulation, the start of the Day of the Lord, when Satan is cast out of heaven.  I will also say they will probably happen after the great tribulation as well to doubly fulfill Matt 24:29.  I don't understand why you think three times is necessary, or why multiple fulfillments are a problem.

After all, the abomination of desolation occurred in the temple over a hundred years prior to Christ, and also in 70AD, and yet both pretribs and posttribs expect a third fulfillment in the middle of the seven year tribulation.

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

So, Matt 24:31 is when he shall "send his angels" to "gather together" "one by one" the "elect" or "Children of Israel" from "the four winds" or "four corners of the earth" at the "great trumpet".

This is Israel at the end of the tribulation.

Secondly, there is also the return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven at this time, with all his Saints who will follow him from out of heaven.

The Lord returns with angels.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

The Lord returns with saints.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

After the tribulation, the Lord will be gathering together Israel from earth to Jerusalem, and also he will be gathering together his his saints from out of heaven.  The Saints got into heaven previously at the pretribulation rapture, as described in John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4, and 1 Cor 15.  There are many other verses which describe the pretribulation rapture as well, and may I refer you to http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/rapture.htm

Likewise, the sixth seal also begins the start of the tribulaiton, the start of the Day of the Lord, and IS the pretribulation rapture.  Yes, the 144,000 in Rev 7 come after the sixth seal, right after the beginning of the tribulation.  In fact, the 144,000 must be sealed early on in the tribulation, before the plagues of the first trumpet, which hurt the earth.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

So that answers when each group comes.  Now as for who these are, you ask, in regards to the martyrs, "If we are gone, who witnesses to them?"

I will ask in turn, "Who witnessed to Saul on the road to Damascus?"  Jesus did.  It is not our job to convert the world.  Most will reject Christianity.  We are commanded to give our testimony, and to have a ready answer for people who question our faith.

Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Yet, there will be powerful preachers in the tribulation after the rapture. In Rev 11, there is the powerful days of prophecy of the two witnesses.

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Finally, I agree with your conclusion, that some of the people living prior to the pretribulation rapture will become the 144,000.  These people are not created out of thin air at the proper time!

And you ask very good questions at the end of number 3:

"Are your children, your family, your friends ready to lose their lives for the sake of the Word of God and their testimony of Jesus?  Are you?"

I will ask in return.  Are you ready to give your life now to Jesus, over to Bible study, so that you will no longer need to ask these questions about the pretribulation rapture, but rather, be able to give a ready answer about them?

Point number 1. One of the definitions of the Day of the Lord is tribulation.

Zephaniah 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble [06869 tsarah] and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

06869 tsarah {tsaw-raw'}
                 from 06862; TWOT - 1973c,1974b; n f
                 AV - trouble 44, distress 8, affliction 7, adversity 5, anguish 5,
                 tribulation 3, adversary 1; 73
                 1) straits, distress, trouble
                 2) vexer, rival wife

Point number 2.  The Great Trib, the Day of the Lord, and the Time of Jacob's Trouble:  All three are the "time unlike any other"

Matthew 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

Joel 2:
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Point number 3.  The Great Trib, the Day of the Lord, and the Time of Jacob's Trouble:  All three are the "time of travail or birthpangs"

Matt 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. [birth pangs]

Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Isaiah 13:
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Point 4.  The 70th Week of Daniel is from the 70 years of captivity, it was a curse and punishment multiplied by seven under the law.

That punishments become multiplied by seven is mentioned four times in Leviticus Chapter 26.
Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

The 70 years are the "anger and fury and wrath" of the Lord.
Dan 9:16 O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Ezra 5:12 But after that our fathers had provoked the God of heaven unto wrath, he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this house, and carried the people away into Babylon.

The 70 weeks are "troublous times".

[Dan 9:25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Thus, if the 70 years are the anger, fury and wrath of God, so are the 70 weeks.  The 70th week is also known as the "time of trouble".  And thus, the 70th week should also be considered the wrath of God.

Jesus comes as a thief, not to kill, but to give life.
John 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jesus comes to give life at the rapture, when he catches away his bride.  "Like a thief in the night" is an expression referring to "taking" a bride.   The definition for rapture, harpazo, contains this meaning, to seize and take.

726 harpazo {har-pad'-zo} (RAPTURE)
from a derivative of 138; TDNT - 1:472,80; v
AV - catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2,
catch 1, pull 1; 13
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away

Men from the tribe of Benjamin at the end of the book of Judges "stole" wives.  The definitions of the words are very similar to harpazo.

Judges 21:23 And the children of Benjamin did so, and took [nasa 05375] them wives, according to their number, of them that danced, whom they caught [gazal 01497]: and they went and returned unto their inheritance, and repaired the cities, and dwelt in them.

01497 gazal {gaw-zal'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 337; v
AV - spoil 8, take away 8, rob 4, pluck 3, caught 1, consume 1,
exercised 1, force 1, pluck off 1, torn 1, violence 1; 30
1) to tear away, seize, plunder, tear off, pull off, rob, take away by force
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to tear away, rob
1a2) to seize, plunder (with acc cognate)
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be robbed
1b2) to be taken away

The law has something specific to say about theft of virgins, either through seduction or force.

Deut 22
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Exodus 22
15 But if the owner thereof be with it, he shall not make it good: if it be an hired thing, it came for his hire.
16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

Finally, the major theme in the wedding which happens right after the groom steals his bride (a groom comes to take his bride even in the Jewish ceremony and tradition) they head off into the bridal chamber for the bridal week, much like a honeymoon.

Judges 14:1-18 ...And Samson made a feast there, as was customary for bridegrooms. ...If you can give me the answer within the seven days of the feast... She cried the whole seven days of the feast.

Genesis 29:22-28 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. ... Finish this daughter's bridal week

The word for bridal week is shavuah. It means a "seven". It can mean seven days or seven years. An example of the Hebrew word shavuah for week meaning seven years can be found in Dan 9:24,27. From this we can see that the believers (bride) in the Messiah (bridegroom) will be with the Messiah in Heaven for His wedding while the earth will be experiencing the seven-year tribulation period.

Thus, the Day of the Lord is the start of the tribulation, and there will be a pretribulation rapture.

Regarding:
1 Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thess 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

There are two clear meanings of "ye are not in darkness".  The first is "you have knowledge, and should not be surprised by the day overtaking you as a thief".  The second meaning of "ye are not in darkness" is "you will not enter tribulation".

The "brethren" should know of the "times and seasons" (1 Thess 5:1) of the Feast of Trumpets and know about the Wedding of the Messiah, so as to be able to be prepared at the coming of the Lord.

Next, "the children of light" will not enter into the darkness of the Day of the Lord, not enter the darkness of the tribulation.

Some have read the phrase "that that day should overtake you as a thief", and said that this means that Jesus will come as a thief on unbelievers.  This notion seems to ignore that the day will come upon everyone.  Every day comes upon every man regardless!

One difference is that believers, through prophecy, should not be surprised by the thief, while unbelievers will be surprised.

The other difference is that righteous and worthy believers will be in Heaven during the tribulation, so the "Day of the Lord", the darkness of the tribulation, will NOT overtake them or come upon them ever.

Those who would apply the "coming as a thief" to refer to Jesus coming with destruction on the unbelievers, from 1 Thess 5:2 & 3, seem to forget John 10:10, which says Jesus is NOT come to destroy, but to give life abundantly.  Or, they may simply not know about the comparisons of the rapture like a wedding.

Finally, regarding the interesting question of the "sudden destruction" of the Day of the Lord mentioned in both 1 Thess 5:3, and the fire of destruction in 2 Peter 3:10.

The war of Gog & Magog in Ezekiel Chapters 38 & 39 is different from the war of Armageddon.  Gog & Magog are armies from the north.  In Armageddon, it's all the nations of the earth.  The war of Gog & Magog will be the mini (false Armageddon) which will give the antichrist a moderate claim of legitamacy to say that he is christ and god and that the world is living in the post armageddon era, and it's time to usher in his 1000 year kingdom.  This war ends with a destruction of fire on the enemies of Israel, "Ezek 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog...", and Israel goes on to burn the weapons for seven years, the exact length of the tribulation.

Ezek 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

2 Peter 3:10 will not be fulfilled, nor will Armageddon be fulfilled.  It's just a partial fulfillment of both prophecies at the start of the tribulation and day of the Lord.

The time of the bridegroom's return for his bride to "catch her away" is related to the bridal chamber's construction. When the preparations on the bridal chamber were completed then it would be the proper time to go and "take her". But the groom's father would be the one to give permission. It was a common expression or saying, a Jewish idiom, that a man would say when his friends asked him when his marriage would be. He would reply, "of that day or hour no man
knows, but my father only."

The unknown day also is a reference, and expression, to the Feast of Trumpets, which comes with the observance of the new moon.  Since the new moon has a cycle of 29.5 days, it is uncertain on whether it will be seen comes 29 or 30 days after the last new moon.

Further, since the Feast of Trumpets is also known as the "Wedding of the Messiah", this phrase is a rapture reference in three ways.
1.  It refers to the time in the wedding when the groom would return to fetch his bride,
2.  It refers to the Day of the Feast of Trumpets,
3.  It refers to the "Wedding of the Messiah" also known as the Feast of Trumpets.

So it all ties together.  It is an "unknown" day, yet we can know when it is!  It's a paradox, a contradiction, but yet, still literally true.  A world event like the rapture can NEVER be pinned down to an exact day or hour because there are always 24 different hours around the globe at every moment.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mark 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

With all these expressions, they were literally true for the disciples at the time as well.  They thought the return would be within their lifetimes, and they were all wrong.  Yet, contained in all these expression, there is never a forbidden "you will never know" type statement, just a present tense "ye know not" in Mark 13:33 comes the closest to that.  But several other verses suggest belivers WILL know.

Luke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Note that two of these verses above include mention of the thief, and many of these verses say to watch.  Note also that none of the verses say that no Christian during the end times will ever know, or that we will be in darkness regarding the coming... In fact, the exact opposite is implied by Rev 3:3, namely that if we watch, we should know the time and not be surpised by the thief!  In Luke 12:39, it says if he had known, he would have watched!  Those who believe that Jesus will return on the Feast of Trumpets will really purify themselves annually at that time each year, and re-dedicate their lives to the Lord each time that Fall Festival comes around.

1 John 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

These verses are some of the trickiest in the entire Bible, and they stumble many, even many pretribbers, because they refuse to drop the "at any moment" type imminency, which these verses and this interpretation would debunk.  The closest I can come to agreeing that the pretribulation rapture will be "at any moment" is "at any Feast of Trumpets", or I can simply say, yes, it will be at "THE day and hour no man knows".

The historic pretribulation rapture position had maintained that there is no rapture in Matt 24, because Matt 24:31 is paralled in Isaiah, as I showed, and refers to the Jews.  This kind of thinking is also supported by a certain error of dispensationalism, which maintains that certain entire books of the Bible are not even applicable to the Church.  But those men of history who first began putting together the pretrib position did not know this expression was a Jewish idiom for the marriage.  Many pretrib teachers deny it even today, mostly because they are simply uninformed, but also because people, particularly devout old men who teach this stuff, are very resistant to "new information", which may also conflict with that same error of dispensationalism.  Also, "once saved always saved" seems to go along with that old protestant doctrinal system, which I also reject.

In conclusion, I hope all of this answered these 6 major objections you had to the pretribulation rapture, and I hope to see you think about these things, and maybe even begin to change the theme of your webpage.

If you have any other major questions, I'd be happy to address those as well.
 
 

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