Proverbs 14:6 A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge
is easy unto him that understandeth.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
----------
Tim: In Jewish custom, the feasting takes place for the entire seven
days!
Jason: In the two Biblical accounts of the bridal week, the feasts occur at different times. In Juges 14, the feast is the full 7 days. In Genesis 29, the feast comes before the bridal week, before the time when Jacob slept with his new "wife", which would actually fit YOUR allegations and scheme of how this fits, unless I am mistaken. I do not find a clear example in scripture where the wedding feast is at the end of the week, except in Rev 19, where I see that as being obvious from the fact that nearly everyone agrees Rev 19 is at the end of the tribulation week.
The point, however, is that in both the story in Judges and in Genesis, there are some deceptive results that occur, specifically because the feast is not at the end. If you read the accounts, the groom would probably not have been tricked, in either story, if the feast was at the end of the week. Of course, you can accuse me of reading that into the stories all you like.
Nevertheless, if you take the Jacob story, with the feast at the beginning
of the week as the proper example of end time views, you would have to
say that the purpose of the feast in Rev 19 is to deceive Jesus as Jacob
was deceived, and I don't think you want to make that comparison, do you?
----------
Tim: When Revelation 19 says, "the marriage of the Lamb is come,
his bride hath made herself ready,"
the wedding HAS NOT YET TAKEN PLACE.
Jason: Well, for such an obvious truth, you sure seem to struggle
with this. And, you repeat this allegation of yours, and with many
exclamation points, as if that helps the argument. I believe it is
based on the verb tense of "come" being present tense? The funny
thing is that many other verbs are past tense. "his bride HATH MADE
herself ready." I agree with you that the wedding feast is about
to occur. And of course, this is where we disagree on timing of the
feast. I say it's at the end, you say the beginning of the bridal
week.
----------
Tim: RE Esther: First off, you are quoting something that
a Persian king did with his wife. This has nothing to do with a wedding!
Jason: The point is that the wife was to be revealed at the end
of the week in this example from the Bible text. It was the only
example I have yet found in the Bible text which has the "revealing" of
the wife at the end of a week long feast. The text does not say whether
it is a marriage or not, but it was certainly an extraordinaily festive
occasion. I do not rely on it to "prove" anything. It's just
a very interesting and compelling story. It is up to the readers
to decide whether they see a parallel in this or not. You are right,
that this is a very "unclear" parallel. I would say it would take
faith to think it fits.
----------
RE the statement by Gundry: "a marriage custom that isn't even
mentioned in the biblical text at hand" and the many Bible texts I quoted
regarding such customs relating to Christ and the Church and His return.
Tim>I am NOT arguing that the Jewish wedding customs are unrelated to the end-time scheme! They certainly are! I am arguing that the REAL customs mentioned in the Bible DO NOT FIT THE PRE-TRIB SCHEME!
Jason: Then you should pick your quotes from men as authorities
more carefully, because the statement by Gundry does not reflect the intent
of your article, because, as we both know and agree, the Bible is filled
with wedding customs which are mentioned in Rev. 19. As I was proving
Gundry wrong, and not you, you should not have taken it personally.
----------
Tim: she does not even have a clue when her wedding is supposed to
be!.... (and on and on about how the bride should know the time of her
wedding)
Jason: Again, I agree with you, and I argue we should know when
the wedding will be. I don't advocate the "at any moment" rapture,
but rather, a Feast of Trumpets rapture.
----------
RE Rev 4 & 5 is this enthronement ceremony which takes place right
after the rapture in Rev 4:1.
Tim> I looked real close at Rev. 4:1, and didn't see any enthronement ceremony!
Jason: That's because it's not in Rev 4:1. As I said, it's in Chapters 4 & 5. Keep reading, you will notice things about thrones and crowns. Incidentally, did you know that one of the purposes of a trumpet blast is to herald the enthronement of a new king?
2 Samuel 15:10 But Absalom sent spies throughout all the tribes of Israel, saying, As soon as ye hear the sound of the trumpet, then ye shall say, Absalom reigneth in Hebron.
1 Kings 1:39 And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, God save king Solomon.
Also, another purpose of the trumpet blast is a call to war. And
at the pretribulation rapture, Satan is cast out of heaven, Rev 12.
(Yes, I know some say this is mid-trib, and we can argue about that if
you like.)
----------
Tim: Therefore, the tribulation MUST end BEFORE the Day of the Lord
begins. There is no alternative.
Jason: Yes, actually there is an alternative. You see, it
does not say "great tribulation" in Matt 24:29. And if this is simply
a double reference to both the great trib, and the general trib of our
day, then it's really not a problem. Furthermore, if the Day of the
Lord is AFTER the tribulation, as you alledge, you have many major problems.
The first of which is that both the DotL and the GTrib are a time unlike
any other, and both are the birthpangs. If one was after another,
then you would have two times of birthpangs, both terrible times, unlike
any other, which would be a terrible contradiction and logical inconsistency.
Of course this topic is beyond the scope of this article.
----------
Tim:You pre-tribbers have now joined the A-millennialists in supporting
your theory EXCLUSIVELY with allegory. Well, I guess I can't blame you.
That's how it started out, with J.N. Darby using the "man child" in Revelation
12 as symbolic of the rapture!
Jason: Actually, I did not know Darby taught that about the manchild as I do. I have not read Darby. I have read a lot of your webpages, however, before I came to any conclusion about the pretribulation rapture. Your many errors helped me to arrive at a conclusion as to the correct view.
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
I agree with you that one of the reason many pretribbers make errors
is the overly strict adherance to literalism, and the rejection of types
and allegories, which the Bible uses repeatedly. To reject allegory as
a proper method of interpretation is to reject the Bible itself.
The Bible's own descriptions of the manchild are fully consistent with
the Church.
----------
Tim: You are attempting to stretch the seven days into seven years
by showing that the number "7" is sometimes used of "years."
Jason: I don't think the word in question was a number.
It means "week--seven days or seven years". If you are counting,
6,7,8, you would not use that word, just as you would not say 4,5,6, week,
8, 9... In the Bible there are weeks of years, because every seven
years there is a sabbath year, where the land rests, and slaves are set
free. The word for this "week" is not the same as "the number 7".
So the comparison and use of this word is a stronger parallel than you
think, and your critique of it is not accurate, and thus, not valid.
----------
Tim: The point is, what did Jesus mean by "my Father's house" in the
context of John 14:1-3, the Upper Room Discourse? My point was simply that
such terminology from Jesus had previously clearly referred to the physical
Temple in Jerusalem.
Jason: No, that was not "simply your point". Your point
was that becuase it could refer to the temple, then that meant we could
not be taken to heaven. And the temple/heaven comparisons are
quite strong. And it is clear that John 14:1-3 is talking about
taking us to heaven, because no other interpretation makes sense.
I agree with you that we will be on earth in the long run, during the millinnium.
Being in heaven is only for the duration of the tribulation week.
Thus, if there is no pretribulation rapture, there really is no point of
going to heaven at all. Thus, once again, showing a major fallacy
of the post trib position.
----------
Tim: Can you
please explain to me how the groom is supposed to feast for the seven
years of the tribulation
with us, when Jesus clearly said above that He is NOT going to partake
of the wine again UNTIL
the Kingdom comes??? And, please don't claim that the "Kingdom" begins
at the beginning of the
tribulation. That is simply not true. Isaiah 2 clearly says that THE
LORD ALONE will be exalted in
the "Day of the Lord." Therefore, the Anti-Christ's being worshipped
as God CANNOT occur durring
this time. ANd the cosmic signs being AFTER th etribulation but BEFORE
the Day of the Lord prove
that they do NOT overlap.
Jason: I am very glad you brought up this crucial misunderstanding regarding Satan being exalted during the tribulation. He will NOT be exalted then.
Exalted in Hebrew means to be high, inaccessibly high. Many words for high there. And also it means to be set secure and safe on high.
07682 sagab {saw-gab'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 2234; v
AV - high 6, exalted 6, defend 2, safe 2, excellent 1, misc 3; 20
1) to be high, be inaccessibly high
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to be (too) high (for capture)
1a2) to be high (of prosperity)
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be high
1b2) to be set on high, be (safely) set on high
1b3) to be exalted (of God)
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to set on high, set (securely) on high
1c2) to exalt, exalt (in effective hostility)
1d) (Pual) to be set (securely) on high
1e) (Hiphil) to act exaltedly
But Satan is NOT set on high safe and secure during the tribulation. He is CAST LOW. Satan is humiliated and cast out of heaven, down to earth, and brought lower than he ever has been in his entire life, scared and angry, not secure and safe at all.
Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation,
and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before
our God day and night.
...
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to
the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down
unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short
time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted
the woman which brought forth the man child.
Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
See also Ezekiel 28, a famous chapter for describing the judgment and humiliation of Satan in the time of the end.
Additionally, in the context of Isaiah 2, it should be realized that Satan must be included in the phrase "upon every one that is proud and lofty". Satan's biggest sin is pride, and Satan will be brought low during the Day of the Lord, the tribulation..
Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness
of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that
day.
Isaiah 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one
that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall
be brought low:
Thus, the Day of the Lord is the time of trouble & the great tribulation, when Satan will be cast out of heaven, and brought low to the earth. And the millinnium starts with the Day of the Lord, when Christ begins to reign, in Heaven.
And thus, getting back to the original point, Jesus partakes of wine,
the communion, right at the start of the bridal week, right at the start
of his Kingdom & millinnial reign.
----------
RE: The phrase, "I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,
and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also" is what a groom would say to
the bride when he would
leave to build the bridal chamber where they would consummate their
marriage week.
Tim> Would you please provide some historical documentation to validate
your claim that this is
what the groom said to the bride, rather than repeating the rumor?
Jason: You might want to look up the footnotes and references
at the end of http://www.ldolphin.org/risk/ult.shtml --he lists many references
and books.
or, you can check
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/ --Eddie Chumney's book,
the Seven Festivals of the Messiah, chapter 7. I don't see any references
at his page.
http://www.returnToGod.com/ --Click on "Hebraic Roots" on the
left, then, both "wedding" and "bride" for two articles on this topic,
but I don't see any references.
http://www.tckillian.com/greg/wedding.html is another source.
Greg Killian doesn't even believe in a rapture.
----------
Tim: And, maybe you should read Matt.
24:29-31 which says Jesus's elect are going to be gathered together
"immediately after the
tribulation."
Jason: Compare Matt 24:31 with
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall
assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall
beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye
shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall
be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of
Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD
in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
----------
Tim: How about showing
me a "resurrection" prior to the "first resurrection" in Rev. 20!
Jason: Please read the gospels about our Lord Jesus who rose from
the dead. If you do not believe in this resurrection which came prior,
you are not a Christian.
----------
Tim: Your argument from the silence of the rapture in Revelation 19
is meaningless.
Jason: No, the silence speaks volumes. There is no resurrection. No trumpet. No rapture. No open door. No change to incorruption. No mention of anyone being made immortal. No end of death being done away with. And Rev 19 is an entire chapter devoted to the return of our Lord Jesus. The silence on these seven rapture topics is overwhelming.
The other bible chapter devoted to the return of our Lord Jesus is Zechariah 14. And each and every one of these things is absent from that account as well. The silence is is a huge testimony against your theory. A gaping hole so wide, so overwhelming, it makes a complete mockery of your entire position.
And these are not just 3-4 verse descriptions, but entire chapters! Likewise, in the two big rapture chapters, 1 Thess 4, and 1 Cor 15, where the actual description of the rapture is made at the very end of the chapter, in both accounts, there is never a mention of a tribulation which must be endured first, nor is there a description of the Lord returning in wrath upon his enemies. Again, the silence and complete absence of these topics speak volumes.
And to merge those four chapters into one account does serious violence
to both the Biblical texts, but also to the double witness of two chapters
on each account. You are gravely mistaken.
----------
Tim> There are Christians in heaven right now!
1Thes 4:14 For if we believe
that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those
who sleep in Jesus.
Jason: If Christians are in heaven right now, they are alseep.
The people in heaven in Rev 19:1 do not look like they are alseep.
----------
Jason>>> When the groom comes for his bride to steal her away, this
is a noisy, public, action.
Blowing trumpets at midnight in a large wedding party to announce the arrival
of the groom is
sure to wake the neighbors! So there is a public announcement of what is
going on, it's not like
the bride and groom are doing anything obscene. Finally, the marriage supper
or wedding feast
would be inapproprate at midnight, it happens the next week.
Tim> Now, you are showing your ignorance of Jewish wedding customs! The
groom comes with his
wedding party for the bride around midnight, on the prescribed day (which
the bride and her
family knows beforehand). The bride comes out to meet him, and they all
proceded back to the
bride and groom's future home (which was prepared by the groom). The wedding
ceremony
commenced immediately, and then the bride and groom would enter the chamber
and consumate
the act by being intimate. Then, both would emerge in an hour or so, and
the seven days of
feasting began. This is the scenario supported BOTH by Scripture and historical
documentation.
And it cannot support the pre-trib scheme on several counts.
Jason: You are right on that, I was wrong to say a feast is always inappropriate at the start of the bridal week. The feast was held at various times during the bridal week, as I mentioned. The point, however, is that the union of the bride and groom, is at the START of the bridal week. And if the bridal week is the tribulation week, then the union of the bride and groom is at the start of the tribulation, and there is a pretribulation rapture. But you are ignorant of the customs if you say, likewise, that the feast was never a week later, because sometimes it was. Again, whenever the marriage feast is held, that has no bearing on the rapture. The rapture is represented by the abduction of the bride, and the time of union between the bride and groom, which is at the start of the week.
I wrote my comments above when you made the wild allegation that the bride and groom, if they were united at the start of the week and then the feast is at the end of the week, you considered that to be infidelity or something. That's MAJOR ignorance of the customs.
Tim: If Jesus takes the bride into the wedding chamber 7 years before the "marriage of the Lamb," then he is a fornicator!
Jason: Yes, major ignorance going on there about how the bridal
week worked. The marriage feast and wedding supper of God is simply
at the end of the week.
----------
Tim: This fact destroys the pre-trib idea of "imminence"
Jason: Yes, you are right. It does destroy the "at any moment"
kind of 'imminence'. The phrase "at any moment" is NEVER found
in scripture, and I do not support that doctrine. It does not,
however, destroy the "rapture comes first" kind of "imminence", which is
fully supported by about 20-30 Biblical texts.
----------
Tim: Well, so now not only does your theory make Jesus a fornicator,
but two of the three
passages you provide to support the "secret kidnapping" of the bride are
actually dealing with
RAPE! Are you suggesting Jesus is also a rapist??? The other passage you
provided has nothing to
do with the groom's alleged coming for his bride (to whom he was already
espoused). So, it seems
my challenge is still unanswered!
Jason: You must have looked at those when you were tired. Try looking at them again. Particularly Judges. And look at the penalty for the rape/seduction of a virgin... it's MARRIAGE THAT CAN NEVER BE DIVORCED EVER AGAIN. Also, do as I suggested, and see my website for the explanations.
http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/wedding12.htm
Yes, rape is very similar to harpazo and the bridal theft. They all mean "to seize", but Jesus is hardly a rapist. It's a type. Look at Hosea. He married a prostitute which was a symbol of Israel which was unfaithful to God. Sometimes a truth is a strange thing to see. The rapture is all about being "TAKEN".
01497 gazal {gaw-zal'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 337; v
AV - spoil 8, take away 8, rob 4, pluck 3, caught 1, consume 1,
exercised 1, force 1, pluck off 1, torn 1, violence 1; 30
1) to tear away, seize, plunder, tear off, pull off, rob, take away
by force
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to tear away, rob
1a2) to seize, plunder (with acc cognate)
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be robbed
1b2) to be taken away
from www.m-w.com
Main Entry: 2rape
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): raped; rap·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin rapere
Date: 14th century
1 a archaic : to seize and take away by force b : DESPOIL
2 : to commit rape on
726 harpazo {har-pad'-zo} (RAPTURE)
from a derivative of 138; TDNT - 1:472,80; v
AV - catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2,
catch 1, pull 1; 13
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
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